Smartphone or "Real" Camera on Vacation?

Nick is back from his vacation in Croatia, and used his phone for his holiday photos! Is a smart phone all you need when on holiday? Steve is contemplating (another) new camera, but which Sony should he buy? And what are Sony up to with the camera line up? Plus the legalities of taking street photos in Paris. 

Transcript

Nick Church (00:00)
Hello listeners and thank you for downloading another episode of the photography pod with me, Nick Church, my good mate, Vaughan. Talking about Steve's, I've had a message from one of our listeners, Steve Kingston, and his message is lovely. It just says, I wanted to also say, because we talked about other stuff, I wanted to also say that I'm really enjoying your podcast with Steve Vaughan. It's really easy listening with great guests and insights, even for someone like myself who isn't in the wedding photography business.

Steve Vaughan (00:24)
great.

Nick Church (00:28)
but just enjoys geeking out at all things photo and video. And I thought that was really lovely because we do that. That is a conscious decision, it? We try not to make it really wedding focused because we know that everyone isn't into weddings. And there's loads of podcasts already doing that as well. And I think we succeed in that mostly. Although it's hard, you know, we're going to drift into it more than other genres, I suspect, because that's both of our things. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, there is that as well.

Steve Vaughan (00:31)
isn't that nice?

Yeah, it is.

too much. Yeah, yeah.

Hopefully, yeah, yeah.

Well thank you Steve, Steve's a great name by the way.

Nick Church (00:56)
Yeah, thanks a lot, Steve. And any other listeners wants to us feedback, ideas, ideas for guests, then do get in touch. We love hearing from you guys. So yeah, do that. But it's interesting to talk about Wedding Votography because it is that time of year. It's the time where Wedding Votography editing and shoots and all of those things, getting inquiries for next year just combined, they Steve? And it's like, it's just really hard work and it just makes you a bit insane.

Steve Vaughan (01:02)
Bring it on.

Absolutely.

Nick Church (01:24)
And I found a really good definition of insanity earlier today. I don't know if you've heard it. Which one's that?

Steve Vaughan (01:27)
Okay.

It's not Einstein's, it?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Nick Church (01:37)
it might be. Let me just check. I'll be, I'll just go. No, no, no, no. It says, it says this, definition of insanity. The wedding photographer that is gracefully and gradually exiting the wedding photography industry to focus on podcasts and other businesses. So then go and buy a top of the range Sony camera. And it's called being Steve Vaughn. It's actually got a term. I think it's the person that came up with it. So the, I looked at the OED and it says a few examples of usage. So it says.

Steve Vaughan (01:40)
have I just stolen your thunder? No. Okay.

CLT is charged, you know.

Nick Church (02:05)
⁓ I'm absolutely mental me. I'm a right Steve Vaughn. So you could, you can use it that way. Or another usage is doctor he's off his meds again. He's gone full Steve Vaughn. So anyway, before we crack into that, let's start the pod.

Steve Vaughan (02:10)
Thank you.

you

Well, I don't know how to respond to that. Hi. Yeah. Well, first of all, hi, Steve Vaughan here and welcome to the photography Pod Well, let me dig into that. Well, it's true that I have been saying on this podcast now since we started that I am retiring from the wedding photography business and we are. It's just been pushed back a little bit. We did a wedding fair on Bank Holiday Monday and we really went along to say goodbye to people really. I said to Sam, you know, we'll show our stuff and put our prices up a bit. Nobody's going to book us.

Nick Church (02:20)
All right, so how do you plead to that criticism?

Steve Vaughan (02:46)
And I think we booked six weddings on the back of that wedding fair. So we're going into 27 now. yes, we in a phased gradual exit rather than edge of the cliff stuff. But I call it insanity.

Nick Church (02:58)
Well, let's

just go through and just reiterate the bit that I'm thinking about. Blah, blah, blah,

Steve Vaughan (03:04)
You're not going to quote back all the things I've said over the last 12 months, are you?

Nick Church (03:06)
and go

and buy a top of the range Sony camera. So that's the bit that I think they're referring to as insanity when you're trying to go in the opposite direction. So how did that come about and what camera was it?

Steve Vaughan (03:10)
Alright, well...

Right. Well, this will get us into one of the topics for today. yes. Okay. Let's, let's look at what Sam and I shoot with then. So we have four Sony cameras. I have a Sony a seven four, I said an R four. We breathe here. Well, you know, tools to shop. have an a seven C two, which I'm talking to you on right now. And then Sam has an a nine and it's been a pride and joy and it's what six years old now.

Nick Church (03:28)
Bit greedy.

Steve Vaughan (03:41)
and it's starting to get a little bit poorly. the beauty of the A9 of course, you don't use the mechanical shutter very often. So the shutter is fine. We're just finding it's locking up a lot. And I better not over, over, I still want to sell this camera to We've had to pull the plug. It's absolutely great. It's got one careful owner, highly any miles of the clock.

Nick Church (03:56)
It's perfect. It's actually perfect. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (04:02)
No, it's the wedding on Saturday we did actually, it just went into permanent like buffering and we've checked the memory cards, it's not the memory cards so and because you can't afford that really so now we do have another 30 weddings to go. It is, yeah.

Nick Church (04:07)
Okay.

That's the, that's just the nightmare. Isn't it? Something like that. I had

a, um, we'll come back to you in a bit. I just to work me for a bit. I yesterday, a very short one. So it's just in the morning. It was, and it was great. It was really lovely. was a, there's a podcast called the Ellis and John podcast with John Robbins and Alice James is just brilliant. I really, really love it. Can sort of comedy podcast.

Steve Vaughan (04:23)
And I'm just about to buy water down the microphone. Yeah, let's talk about you, Nick. Yeah.

Nick Church (04:40)
And there's a Facebook group attached to that. And it's a really, just really cool group of people, really nice group of people. Anyway, someone recommended me in there. So I ended up doing their wedding. And it's split, you know, as well as weddings, we're split across two things. So yesterday was the register office and on Fridays, a bigger party. And where was I going with this? Oh yeah, that was it. I'd parked the car in Bristol to go to register office and realized that it is the one time ever.

Steve Vaughan (04:50)
great.

I don't know.

Nick Church (05:09)
I hadn't taken, cause you have to, when you're doing that sort of thing, you're leaving your bag or I do typically. And I just literally take my cameras on my hold fast and just walk it. I don't take a bag to someone like that. Well, yeah. and, yeah, was the only time I didn't have spare SD cards with me. And I thought, what's the, what's the chances is probably going to, it's such a low chance. I do it all the time and it's never, I've never had an issue. And luckily I didn't, but it really worried me. thought if anything happens.

Steve Vaughan (05:16)
Okay, I wouldn't leave my bag in my car personally, but that's your choice. Yeah.

⁓ no.

Hmm.

Nick Church (05:35)
I don't know what I'm going to do because I'd have to, I guess, just revert to one camera, just stop using that one camera and revert to the other one, which is on the other side.

Steve Vaughan (05:42)
I think

one of the issues with the A9 and the A9 was a revolutionary camera when it came out and in many ways it's still a great camera. But one of the issues is the two slots. The second slot is a standard UHS-1 slot. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And we're sending raw to both. And if you do a burst, just wonder sometimes if you just might get its knickers in a twist, if I can use a technical phrase. Because I think it was intended to be like for JPEGs, for sports photographers.

Nick Church (05:54)
Yeah, like the A7-3 used to be like that. An R3,

Mm.

I that's the last three

podcasts records you've mentioned knickers. No, yeah. So let's see. It's like we ought to get an app where you get a streak. You're on a three knicker streak at the moment. that listeners is why the YouTube channel is behind a little bit. I can't have the mental stress to see that.

Steve Vaughan (06:12)
Is it really? It's just a thing here. can't... The good news is you can't see my waist because I'm wearing some very, very fetchy ones right now.

God. No, you really don't want to see that.

So anyway, I said to Sam, what do want to do? as it turned out, what do you do? The thing's buffering. It's not going anywhere. What do do? Do pull the card? Do you pull the battery? I pulled the battery. You put the battery in and you get that sort of error building the database. What do want to do? ⁓ God. Okay.

Nick Church (06:39)
Mm.

and both options seem really bad, don't they? It's worded in a way they think, I don't know what the safe thing to do is.

Steve Vaughan (06:47)
Both options are scary. Yeah. So

I picked the one which I thought was the least scary and luckily everything up until that moment we'd still got. So Simon got the bridal prep, know, me for the back of the venue. what all we'd missed really was, you know, a few portraits walking around the farm and the bride and groom stroking a horse actually. ⁓ yeah, yeah. So in the end it wasn't a major problem. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Church (07:06)
What the last few shots it had taken before the error. wonder if, um, because the firm was, but you obviously updated for, I used to have an A7R3

that used to do that. And, and the A7-4 used to do that a couple of times I've had that. And it's almost like there's, cause I know in a software architecture, there's various levels of software. The bit we replace typically is not always the full thing. I wonder if there's a bit that they've, that's in those models lower down in the, in the guts of the software.

Steve Vaughan (07:18)
Mm. Mm.

Nick Church (07:35)
that has this issue. I've had that a couple of times where it just freezes has that message and it always recovers, but you lose the last couple of images. And it's the only time I ever have a problem. And it's always the same on both cards. I don't know if it the same with you. So it doesn't, this idea of shooting on both cards for safety, the only time I've ever had a problem, I've had the same issue on both cards lost like two or three images. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (07:41)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, it was. Yeah.

Both cards have got to the same stage

really. So on the basis that we are going on for another, well, two years, fact, two years from now really. And for that reason, we will try and book some more weddings in 27. We don't really want any more next year, no. know, Sam said, well, I want a more reliable camera. And I think now, you know, looking at the Sony range right now, what do you go for? So Sam really likes the silent shutter. She loves...

using the A9 because she loves the fact that nobody hears a clicking away, know, both in bridal prep, but also in the back of the church really. So what do go for then really? The A9 II is discontinued and it's really the same camera with just a few minor cosmetic tweaks really. The A9 III is bonkers buddy. It's what, six and half grand or something like that, is it the A9 III?

Nick Church (08:42)
It's still incredibly expensive and

Steve Vaughan (08:44)
for the global

shutter, is great revolutionary technology, but do I really need that?

Nick Church (08:48)
Is it?

don't know. Yeah, but anyway, we'll come on to that in a minute. I'm not sure if it is. I think it is, but I don't think it's quite there right now.

Steve Vaughan (08:51)
Yeah.

No. So I know people, like people like Neil Redfern, for instance, I've got one now, cause you know, with the flash work he does, you can see the reason for that. You've you know, flash at any, flash sync at any shutter speed, incredible for that kind of thing, really. But you're still 24 meg and I don't know about you, but I find 24 megapixels a little bit limiting sometimes now. I know it sounds like 21st century problems. 33. Yeah. I think that's, that's the new entry.

Nick Church (09:01)
Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do like, uh, 33, 33 on the, a seven four. Yeah. I think that's, that's the sweet

spot. I 24 is fine. Um, I didn't want the, I didn't ever really need the 41 or whatever it was on the seven R three that used to have at the eight seven R five. What is it? 60? 60. Yeah. I saw you. It's just, I think that's, that's crazy. I mean, that, but I think there is a, is there a 24 megapixel?

Steve Vaughan (09:28)
Mm. Mm. Mm.

61 on the 04 and 05. Yeah.

Nick Church (09:42)
Raw mode, I think there might be a crop of some sort or reduced.

Steve Vaughan (09:44)
There is on the five. So I haven't got the five, I've got the four. I

like high resolution camera, I'll be honest, because I like the fact I can be lazy and I can crop the backsides of things if I need to, but it is probably overkill. So we looked at it and so, you know, this isn't a rumours podcast, but allegedly the Sony A75 is around the corner. And from what I've seen, I don't know if you've seen any different Nick, but it doesn't seem to be a massive upgrade from what people are saying. So it's the same sensor people are saying really.

Nick Church (09:51)
Mmm, yeah.

Okay.

Okay, right.

So basically similar to the A7 3 to 4.

Steve Vaughan (10:16)
Well, no. they tend to go, every two models tend to have the same sensor. So so forward of, yeah, yeah. so I mean, probably like the A7C2 with the AI chip in it really, which would be nice, but you know, would be, make me want to rush out and buy one of those. And then we look at what the competition's doing. I'm not fully O speed, but it seemed like the Nikons, know, there's the Z8s or Z8s, whatever seem to be.

Nick Church (10:21)
So three to four was the new sensor.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (10:41)
great, know, the Canon R6. So if they're just bringing out a model with minor cosmetic tweaks, particularly for videographers, you still have to crop at 4K 50 or 4K 60 in the States as well, which is a big, big thing really, I think.

Nick Church (10:54)
Hmm. Yeah, that's the kid.

That's the killer feature for me. If I could, if I could have that, if I, if the, I wonder why they just, it would just walk off the shelves, wouldn't it? If they enabled that in the, in the A75, it would absolutely walk off. But I guess they want to, yeah, yeah. For 4k, 4k 50 or a hundred frames per second. I guess they, they're still want to push the video centric models and the A1.

Steve Vaughan (10:59)
Yeah.

What? No crop you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, funny you mention that you won't.

Nick Church (11:23)
And I guess it, go on. And

this is, this is where the madness comes from. So you've got yourself an A1.

Steve Vaughan (11:30)
We decided to press a button on one today. looking at the options, Sam absolutely wants silent shutter. And I all cameras do the silent shutter, but silent shutter, no banding, no rolling shutter. So you're looking at the A9s or the A1s then really. ⁓ sensor. And the original A1, that camera is, the designer of camera is like four years old now really. You can get them, no not.

Nick Church (11:44)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

So stack sensor.

Steve Vaughan (11:57)
not silly money, a lot cheaper than they were. So in the UK,

Nick Church (12:00)
How do they

how they priced on the use market compared with a new like a new A74 for example.

Steve Vaughan (12:05)
You can get a

new A1, so I used A1 for about 3K. So it's not, well it is, but I mean, what would be the A7-4B, A7-5B when it comes out? That's going to be pushing two and a half, I would think. Yeah. You know, um.

Nick Church (12:10)
Right, so still up there, isn't it?

Yeah, that's going to be put about the same. Yeah. Yeah. A bit less maybe. Yeah. I mean, the A74

was 2,300, 400, something like that. Yeah. Well, bought mine. So.

Steve Vaughan (12:25)
Yeah. Yeah. So

the new one's going to be pushing for a three, I think really. ⁓

Nick Church (12:31)
Yeah,

which is, which is one of the reasons why camera manufacturers bring out these interim minor update, updated versions, I guess, because they can keep things looking current, add a few little features and stick another £400 on it.

Steve Vaughan (12:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Allegedly Sony are not branding any new sensors until 2027 I read the other day. They announced that to their shareholders. I mean, they're going to lose market share. There's no doubt about it to me. They're going to lose them. mean, allegedly they're number two in the camera world, the book, know, borderline number one we count in, but they're going to lose market share I think if that's the case.

Nick Church (13:03)
What manufacturers do you think have got better sensor tech?

Steve Vaughan (13:07)
I think it's necessary with the sensor, because all of them are using the same sensors anyway. They're all Sony sensors apart from Canon, are they any other manufacturer of sensors out there? Panasonic have got a 44 Meg partially stacked sensor, so think same to the Nikon's as well. that's, you know, that's Sony sensor. So why you can't get into Sony cameras is a mute point really. But I think it's not just a sensor as well. think, you know, they're caught up with autofocus, perhaps not as good still as Sony, but

Nick Church (13:12)
Mm.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (13:35)
you know, good enough, perhaps, perhaps some of the features of, you know, I'm not a serious videographer, but if you want, if you want raw video, some cameras can offer that now, albeit with a, you know, through the HDMI or through the USB or whatever. ProRes, yeah, and all that. So, so yeah, I think.

Nick Church (13:44)
Mm-hmm.

what you saw ProRes type, yeah.

I guess that's

the thing with Sony because they were so ahead of the game with mirrorless technology. If they keep still, others are chomping at the bit. And I think those have caught up pretty much. And they do need to keep innovating. I mean, not because it's going to make us better photographers. It's not going to do any, it's not going to take better photos, is it? But we want the, you know, new functionality and things that make our lives easier. And as soon as you can find that, I mean, people won't

Steve Vaughan (13:58)
I think I

I think that's definitely the case. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Nick Church (14:23)
jump ship easily because it's so expensive to move to a whole new system, especially if you're a professional and you've got, and you've got a bunch of kit there. but there'll be a point where if, if there's some compelling functionality in a different line and it's worth that, that hit on selling your stuff and buying new stuff, then that's a danger, isn't it? For the likes of Sony.

Steve Vaughan (14:27)
Not if you're invested in the glass.

It will happen for sure.

So yeah, interesting times, I think for Sony, the next couple of product launches will be crucial, I think, to them and to the brand moving forward, ⁓ Back to the A1, why we went for an original A1. So the A1 Mark II has the Sony AI chip, as in the A7CTM I'm talking to you, so it will be smarter at tracking and things. But the original A1 AF apparently was still amazing. ⁓

Nick Church (14:52)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (15:08)
for weddings anyway, know, mean, the bride isn't normally doing 100 meters hurdles. Sometimes, knows? ⁓ Not usually. But 50 megabyte silent shutter, 30 frames second, if the bride is doing 100 meters. You've got electronic flash sync up to 200 seconds as well, which is quite nice. So you can use, you know, an electronic shutter. Yeah.

Nick Church (15:13)
Not usually.

Mm.

On electronic shutter. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (15:30)
So up to a forward with a second mechanical shutter, 200 of a second. So you can use flash with silent shutter, albeit at a slightly slower sync speed.

Nick Church (15:38)
Cause that is a real pain

for, don't know if any listeners have had this where, on my a seven fours and loads of other cameras, you can't do that. If you go to electronic shutter, then you can't use your flash. It just won't, it won't fire. So you, but because it's something that I go in and out of that electronic shutter made quite often. If I know I'm, if I'm outside, I'll tend to use that trying to shutter. If I'm inside and it's like a ceremony or something like that, where I don't want to be clicking away, I'll check the light. And if it's the sort of light that isn't banding,

I'll go and let it try electronic then as well. But then when you bring a flash on, it doesn't work. So you have to add on and on with the, with the go docs. And I don't know this is go docs related or Sony related, or maybe it's the same with all manufacturers. You have to turn the flash off, turn the camera to switch, switch back to mechanical shutter on the camera, then turn the flash back on. And it's just this cycle that I do about 50 times a day at wedding. it's frustrating.

Steve Vaughan (16:09)
Exactly. ⁓ forgot.

Yeah. Yeah.

It is annoying, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it is annoying. just something you just said, actually, I want to go back to. So you about go into electronic shutter mode on your A7 IVs and check in that there's no banding. So how do you do that? You just take a picture and look at it.

Nick Church (16:45)
I, I

take a, about 10 shots, just 10 quick shots, and then just put it to my eyes so I can really see properly and just whiz through them. Because if you, if it's banding, you can, you can't see it in one often because if it's really subtle, you can't see it, but you can see it when you flip the same scene between different images because the bands are moving. So that's what I tend to do.

Steve Vaughan (16:49)
Okay.

Yep.

Yeah, sure. That's interesting.

Yeah, I would do the same. tend to find as long as I'm at very rare, use electronic shutter on my Sony's Samsung, obviously always, but if I do need to do so, you know, to their church or something, I tend to try and shoot at the multiple domains frequency. So 100th of a second or 200th of a second, 100th is a little bit slow, but again, you know, there's not much movement during the ceremony and things, but I find as long as I'm a multiple of 50 of Hertz or 60 would be the state scores.

Nick Church (17:21)
Mm.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (17:31)
⁓ I'm usually okay. ⁓

Nick Church (17:31)
Mm-hmm.

I just think I'd rather

put up with the click in, think. Not really, no. I mean, not compared with like a, you know, 5D Mark III or something like that, you know, with the mirror whacking up and yeah, well, exactly, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (17:40)
Well, they're not that noisy, they? sound is, let's be honest.

The D850 was the one or a D800. how it

used to sound like scaffolding falling down. You know, if you press it should. So, so anyway, dear Lester, yes, the treat is true. I am barking mad and that's been, I've that for years, but we are still going to be shooting weddings for another year. But I am still slowing down to focus on, well podcasting, but also my self training business as well.

but Samantha is getting a shiny new camera. in two years time, Nick, when we do finally say that's it, we would still like to have quite a nice camera for ourselves as well. So let's the thought of it as well.

Nick Church (18:18)
True. Well, yeah,

but you've got your Fuji cameras and you've put them in all the other ones you've got and you'll have another half a dozen by then, I expect.

Steve Vaughan (18:22)
Well, that's a fun camera. Yeah.

Look, all seriousness, I remember Martin Chung saying this when he started on the pod right at the very start. I think you get a creative kick, like a boost out of getting new gear sometimes. I think sometimes just having a different lens or a different camera just gets you a little bit out of comfort zone and think, I'll do something different today or I'll focus and work in a different way or I'll, you do you find that? Yeah.

Nick Church (18:44)
Mm.

Yeah, it does. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. think

so. Yeah. If there's anything that you've got to want, you've got to want to want to do it. I mean, you read loads of things and if it's, if that's the thing to have a, ⁓ a, a new version of it or upgraded version or a new lens, whatever, if that's the thing that makes you really want to go and do it. Absolutely. And it's worth it for that. That is then a value, a value that you can actually offset. Think, well, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Steve Vaughan (19:09)
Yeah, exactly. As long as the business can afford it and that, know, and I run

a cash predictor, I run it like two years out to know exactly when, because with weddings, know when your money's going to come in typically, don't you? So you can predict cash flow and all that kind of stuff. So, exciting times.

Nick Church (19:22)
Mm.

I was thinking it's like when

you do this, when you, I did it today. had my, bike MOT today, my motorbike. So I cleaned it, got it, and I'm sure it rode better afterwards. know, nothing's happened. Nothing's changed to it. It's like when you clean your car, it just feels nicer and it feels nice to drive and you're more likely to want to go out and do it. And that's the, that's the thing.

Steve Vaughan (19:43)
It does. It is, yeah, it

is. That's why I'm never understand. I mean, I'm not fastidious about looking after my kit, but I do like to keep my kit clean and well looked after. I don't understand why people sort of throw brand new cameras into a bag and let them bang around just for the fun of it. I don't get that. I'll be honest. You know, unless you're a war photographer. Yeah.

Nick Church (19:57)
Mm.

Yeah, I worked with a

second shooter once that just had a bag of lenses, no front or back caps chucking in there. I thought I'm looking forward to seeing these photos, but you couldn't tell they looked fine to me. was a load of Canon kit, looked fine.

Steve Vaughan (20:10)
It's not that not as uncommon as you think. Yeah.

Well,

just on that as well, we're leaping around over place. Do you ever play the game of at a wedding? What's the strangest place I can put my camera in right now? Well, I've been arrested of course. Do ever do that? It's just like if it's a boring wedding and there's not much happening, know, everybody's just standing around or they're all sitting down having a drink or whatever. Where can I put my camera now? That would give me an unusual angle or something a bit different. Just try it next time you have a wedding.

Nick Church (20:28)
No, I haven't played it. What's the rules of that game exactly?

Okay, yeah. Yeah, I thought you meant like,

I thought you would just like you meant behind the fridge or, or something like that. For creative purposes, I see what you mean. Yeah. I was genuinely pressing the panic button under here then I thought Steve has lost it.

Steve Vaughan (20:47)
I'm going to hide it on top of the garage. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean to put it there. I'm actually putting somewhere and use it. I'm not advocating

any kind of surreptitious, sneaky photos that might get you arrested. No, I'm not saying that at all.

Nick Church (21:02)
No, but

I think that this is why I do always, I'm always looking out for those things. And that I think this is why it's so useful to have other people shooting with you, isn't it? And shooting groups and going to things like street photography meetups and things to look at how other people are finding angles, because there's always someone's got a completely different view. You think that is an absolutely bloody fantastic angle that I would never have thought of doing that. And it's, it's really useful. What would I say we're up to this week, Steve?

Steve Vaughan (21:12)
Yes is, yes.

Exactly. Yeah. So

what else went up to this week? Well, I to Paris recently with my sales training business. So I went over on the Eurostar, which is nice when somebody else is paying for it. So not quite first class, but not, you know, the one in the middle kind of thing where you get a cold meal and a glass of champagne or something, which was very nice. I stayed in a hotel.

Nick Church (21:32)
yeah.

Alright.

Steve Vaughan (21:50)
which apparently was used for the Olympics for the equestrian activities last year. So not the horses stayed in the hotel. They said, think so. The vets and things for the horses stayed in this hotel. So it was near Versailles, but it was very nice. you know, apart from picking a cold, which I always seem to do when I go to Paris, I don't know why. Possibly, yeah.

Nick Church (22:00)
Okay, yeah.

from the, from the Euro star. Did you, did you,

I've never gone on the channel. Do you sit that was not sitting in the car that was on the train? Yeah. So maybe he picked it up from there.

Steve Vaughan (22:16)
That's on the train. Yeah. So I mean, it's,

if you don't fly, know, going to drive to Heathrow, find somewhere to park, get there an hour and half, two hours early, wait for your plane to be delayed. Um, know, short hop over there, crush to get off all that kind of stuff. So, and then you've got to get across from Chardigal across to the other side of, of, um, Paris. Whereas on the Eurostar, I got the train from home. Uh, you know, from Bistet to Marleybone. I live five minutes from Bistet North. Yeah.

Nick Church (22:39)
Because you live in a train station, don't you, famously? ⁓ so you pretty much

do live in a train station.

Steve Vaughan (22:46)
Well, thank you. Yeah. Um, um, you can hear the rattling of the trains right now. Hang on. Hang on. What was that prawn sandwich? Yeah. Okay. Um, by the cup, uh, then across to, uh, some pancreas and then the, or a star and it's two and a half hours, Nick. And it's very, very nice. It's very nice. You know, you can have it, you can do a bit of work. You can read, can listen, you can listen to the photography podcast. Um, other podcasts are available. So yeah, it was good fun. Uh, but coming back with a cold word. This is true or perhaps slightly more coherent.

Nick Church (22:51)
Mind the gap.

Mm.

Other, other podcasts are available, but not, not as good as, as we've, and, so did you have,

was it, was, did you have some time to look around and like take photos as well?

Steve Vaughan (23:18)
So I did.

I timed my journey. So I only had a one day training course with 30 odd people, which was a lot actually for sales training. But I timed my arrival and also my departure because I stayed there the night before and the night after the training. So I could go and have mooch around Paris. So I haven't been Paris since literally just before lockdown. And ⁓ I thought I'll go and a little bit of.

Nick Church (23:38)
Right, Yeah, think I've been for years.

Steve Vaughan (23:41)
street photography so I went up to Mon Marthre and if I said that right aware of Sacre-Cœur and stuff but did you know that apparently street photography is not legal in France? Well I should caveat that you can take pictures but if you would put the pictures on you know if I took your picture on the street and I put it on my Instagram as a street scene and I didn't get your permission that's not legal.

Nick Church (23:46)
Mm-hmm.

I didn't. That's interesting.

Right. Interesting. You'd thought that would be the same across all of Europe, but it's not. It's that they've got their own rules around privacy and things. It's interesting.

Steve Vaughan (24:11)
They have, yeah. I think in Austria

as well, I read somewhere it's even more draconian. So I struggled to see what the difference is between somebody with a phone, you know, going click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, somebody who's got an inverted commas proper camera. I took the Sony A7C with me because I've got a proper camera. That probably means that, you know, I'm doing something.

Nick Church (24:21)
Mmm.

Yeah,

but it's weird.

Steve Vaughan (24:31)
And I do wonder, in

years to come, how will we know what people were doing on the streets in those days, in our days?

Nick Church (24:38)
Well, and

also if you've got a, whether you're using your, let's say if you were using your proper camera and you were taking a picture of, let's say you me Sam and you're taking a picture of someone in the background. Is that different than if she wasn't there and that person in the background was a street photography scene? What's the definition? Who decides one's fine and one's not? I know there's this thing certainly in, in the UK and you'll have to do a fact check on this in the edit. Something about street photography. If you're publishing for a book, then there's.

Steve Vaughan (24:49)
Hmm. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

Nick Church (25:08)
there's lower need to get releases and things, which is why so many street photographers create books, because it's a way to get your work out there without needing to get release forms signed.

Steve Vaughan (25:17)
So I'm not an expert and if you are a lawyer, please write in and let us know the correct view on this. But my understanding is you can take photos anywhere in the UK unless it's on private property and of anything, because you don't own your image in law. I think I'm right in saying that. But I might be wrong. ⁓

Nick Church (25:34)
Yeah, we'll have

to, we'll have to, we'll have to have a think about it because that's definitely true that you can take. That's what mind standing as well. On, on public property, you can take any photos you want. There is a caveat. There are, there are caveats to that as there are with taking like shots from a drone that if someone is in some, it's somewhere where they can expect privacy, then it goes away from a GDPR issue into being more privacy laws.

Steve Vaughan (26:01)
Yeah.

Nick Church (26:02)
So if

you're in your kitchen, let's say you happen to be on a terrace house that goes straight on the street. If you're in your kitchen, you're in your knickers, which you then just because I'm on the public street shooting through the window, that isn't okay because you, you, should expect to expect to have privacy in your room. ⁓

Steve Vaughan (26:09)
Yeah.

I think that's right, yeah. We

haven't had a street photographer on for quite a while, we perhaps need to think about getting another street on because it'd be great to have Mr. Whisper or something like that, would be great, I'll reach out to him.

Nick Church (26:22)
Yeah, yeah, that's a idea.

It is

a topic that you see discussed all the time. I give my thoughts on it on Facebook groups and things like that, on the Academy and stuff. You see other people doing so, but no one seems to have the definitive knowledge. Because if you ever try and Google, if you ever tried doing this, Googling what the law is, after about half an hour, you just think, I don't know. It's just so fuzzy and blurry that you can't, there's no way you can say, right, this is okay. This isn't, these are the rules. can't boil it down into a set of guidelines.

Steve Vaughan (26:39)
No.

Mm. Mm.

So I think if I was on Tottenham Court Road taking a photo of somebody, think that's kosher, is of the better phrase,

Nick Church (26:56)
Very difficult.

But,

but then there's the difference between taking the photo and then publishing it because by publishing it, because even though you've taken my photo without my permission, that's what was on top of court road, then that's fine. But my image is a protected characteristic. It's private information. I think it is if you, because if you then put it on the internet and I'm, and I'm visible in that shot or identifiable in that shot.

Steve Vaughan (27:21)
I don't think it is. I don't think it is.

Mm-hmm.

Nick Church (27:32)
I think that's the point at which it gets a bit more murky about whether that's all right.

Steve Vaughan (27:36)
But if you look at all the street, the great street photographers that I follow and I follow loads on Instagram and others, you know, they've got pictures of people on the street and I kind of imagine them saying, excuse me, do you mind if I just use your picture? Well, what I was going to say, if I'd have took your picture at Canary Wharf, I definitely can't do that because I know it's prohibited because that is private property. Yeah. So I think it's a topic we need to come back to. Yeah.

Nick Church (27:43)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Within that, the land owner. Yeah. No, interesting. Yeah. That's

a good point. Yeah. Let's put a pin in that because it'd be good to chat to somebody that, you he sounds like you, sounds like you know a bit about it. Um, I think I've got some areas that I understand, but there's definitely big gaps in my knowledge about stuff. And we'd be useful to find out because we are planning a trip, Steve, aren't we? Yeah. Professional, professional all the time.

Steve Vaughan (28:05)
photography and the law. ⁓

Good segue, Nick, good segue.

Almost like a real podcaster, yeah. We are, why don't you tell the lister?

Nick Church (28:24)
Ha ha ha.

Well, we're planning

to do a meetup in London. So we thought we'd be London, we good because it's loads of stuff to shoot. doesn't matter what the weather is, particularly there's loads of places we can shoot and it's fairly central. So we're going to just meet up and see who's up for it. So we're going to put a post into the Facebook group and we'll see what the level of interest is. And we're just going to plan a date, which we think is going to be the 1st of November. So Saturday, the 1st of November. So we're just heading to London and meet up.

Steve Vaughan (28:51)
first in November, which is a Saturday. Yeah.

Nick Church (28:57)
have a beer, have a coffee, and then we might go into 10 different directions. Steve's got an idea about doing a monopoly game where we go off. Steve, do want to explain that? Because I'll get that wrong.

Steve Vaughan (29:05)
Well, I've got this, I've

always wanted to do this. So it depends on if anybody turns up, because if it's just you and me, Nick, it's not going to work. Yeah. But if we were to get sort of 10 plus people. So my idea is that we'd meet somewhere for a coffee, let's say 11 o'clock, something like that. You know, give people time to get their meat for coffee. And then basically, you know, the monopoly board, you know, you've got the red, blue, different colors. Yeah. We split up into groups. So three or four people per group. And basically each group has to do their side of the monopoly board. So.

Nick Church (29:23)
Yep.

Steve Vaughan (29:34)
somebody has, I don't know, what's the posh ones, the dark blues and the greens. Yeah. So Mayfair, Park Lane, Regent Street. I can't remember. Yeah. And you have to go and take some photos in those properties or those streets that represent them, but you can't just take the road signs. That's too easy. So you've got to go and take a photo in Mayfair.

Nick Church (29:39)
Kensington, is that one?

Yep.

Okay. So, so do we need to take photos

that are identifiable as that place? So it's like a something.

Steve Vaughan (29:59)
That you

could say this is Mayfair. It might not be completely obvious, but you can when somebody says this is Mayfair because it's big expensive hotels and posh shops or something, you know. ⁓

Nick Church (30:08)
All right. So rather than

just an interesting, don't know, bit of texture in a wall of a house, you know, close up that you wouldn't be able to tell.

Steve Vaughan (30:13)
I think we can leave

it to the creative inspiration of the people really. I think some of them would be harder than others because some of are really almost like corridors rather than streets. So I'd still, it'd be fun. Yeah. And then we can all come back and compare. Yeah.

Nick Church (30:17)
Alright, alright.

Yeah. Oh, that'd be good. That'd be great. Yeah. And yeah. So if we get enough people, so we're going to make sure

we've got enough people to play Monopoly. If there's just the two of us, we'll have to play snap. And if it's just me, I'll play solitaire. Yeah, that probably happened anyway. So that's the first of November. So yeah, put that in your diary, everybody. And the details of that will be on the Facebook group. If you're not in the Facebook group, just search the photography pod on Facebook and then.

Steve Vaughan (30:38)
You can play the fool. All ⁓ right, so first of November, dear listener.

Nick Church (30:54)
You can fill out groups and it will show you the groups and join on there. ⁓

Steve Vaughan (30:56)
And it would

also give us a bit of a kick about the backside to start putting stuff in the Facebook group as well, which we haven't been doing for a while, which is...

Nick Church (31:00)
Yes. Well, we've been

on holiday Steve, we? And talking of which, ⁓ I went to, well, I went to, ⁓ lovely Croatia, which you did, ⁓ a few weeks before, didn't you? And I, I loved it. Absolutely loved it. It was, and I did put a photo in the, ⁓ Facebook group actually, ⁓ that we took. was just, it was an easy jet holiday. It was just a really, you know, fairly, well, that looks really nice. Dawn chose it. I didn't have anything to do with it at all. So I'll give it all the credit.

Steve Vaughan (31:04)
Tell us about your holiday Nick, we're all going to be really jealous.

did.

Do you it?

Great, innit.

Nick Church (31:27)
It was absolutely beautiful. place was staying as a place. was a place called, um, Brela, which is about, I guess, about 30 miles. It was an hour away from split. So south of split on the coast. And it was just, it reminded me when I was a kid of going to Greek islands like Corfu before they were really developed. It was just, there was about half a dozen restaurants, a couple of bars, enough for kids to do beautiful bloody beaches, incredible, incredible, um, snorkeling, which I love to do.

Steve Vaughan (31:38)
So you're a bit further south than we were. Okay, yeah.

Hmm, very similar.

Was your booking

at Sandbeaches because it wasn't where we were. was was Shaly type beach. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is fine. Yeah.

Nick Church (31:58)
No, Pebbly. Yeah, Shirley Pebbly, which is perfect for me.

It's basically, you know, any relationship is a marriage of compromise and that is ours. Sandy Beaches Dawn loves because she's from Antigua. So she wants white sandy beaches, but that's rubbish for snorkeling because it creates murky sea. So I like really rocky beaches, but then she hates those. So a shingly kind of beach is basically where we're at. and Brighton would count for that, but it's not really very swiveable.

Steve Vaughan (32:12)
goes.

⁓ that's so about that, yeah.

Nick Church (32:26)
in Brighton. So yeah, it was really, it was really lovely, Steve. It really, you know, you

Steve Vaughan (32:26)
No, I wouldn't recommend it right now. Good.

Nick Church (32:30)
know, you, you don't expect sometimes you go and you don't really expect it to be as nice as it is. And it was just so relaxing. I actually didn't, I did work one, I did about maybe a couple of hours work one day in an hour, another day. Other than that, it was the first week I've, I've had without working every day for years, a couple of years, you know, so

Steve Vaughan (32:52)
And it's important to

have that break it really is.

Nick Church (32:53)
Yeah, it really was. It was nice.

I, it made me think before we went to be our podcast that came out what a couple of weeks ago with Marcus Ahmed, where he talked about taking shots, you know, about what camera to take on holiday with you. Cause it's always something when I come to pack, which is what time is our flight? That was the only real pain in the bum. was, our flight was fourth, five o'clock, five 30 in the morning.

Steve Vaughan (33:02)
Yep. Yeah, he's great Marcus. Yeah.

Nick Church (33:20)
So we had to be up it, so we were up it. It was just about worth going to bed, you know, go back. So, yeah. So we, we're only about 20 minutes away from there, so it was fine. But by the time you go and park, you don't want to have to pay a thousand pounds to park actually next to the runway. So you have to go to the, what's called the silver parking, which is, you know, like he throwing stuff as offsite takes, it's not as far as that, but it takes 10 minutes and there was a massive queue. So it was like, anyway, so I'm packing the night before as always.

Steve Vaughan (33:21)
Wow.

From Bristol. Okay. Still here though. Yeah.

In Wales probably, yeah.

Nick Church (33:47)
And I've, I've do this every time I've got my camera, which is now my Fuji setup, which is what the, I take with me. I've got my 56 mil lens, which is the 85 equivalent 33, which is a 50 and my 18, which is a 24 equivalent. I've got them lined up and I thought, I don't want to take all three, but I can't ever work out which one not to take or which one to take on its own. And remembering what Marcus said about. If you're, if you've got an iPhone that's, mean, my iPhone is a iPhone 12.

Steve Vaughan (33:52)
.

And that makes two five. Yeah. ⁓

Nick Church (34:15)
pro, I think. that's probably like five, six years old. If you've got something relatively decent, the wider angle shots are going to look pretty similar to a wide angle lens. Or in fact, the difference is going to be much less than say zooming in on an iPhone and using your 85 mil lens. Those are going to be massively different and you're going to get much better shots. So his view was, if you're going to take one lens, take your camera and he takes a 90 mil macro lens with him.

Steve Vaughan (34:15)
Wow, that's four years old.

Interesting.

Nick Church (34:44)
Just because he can take closeups, insects and things like that, things you might not see at home. And it's great for, you know, that 85 mil type portrait sort of area as well. And if he wants to take wider angle shots, then he just uses the, his phone and that combination of two. So so that's what I did. And it, it was really quite liberating actually to have, it in the bag to bring out for a completely different look. So was, and I did get, I did take the 24 mil lens as well in the end. So I did take two lenses because.

Steve Vaughan (34:44)
I remember him saying that, yeah, yeah, ⁓

Exactly.

That's what you did.

Yeah.

Nick Church (35:12)
And there was, there was an incredible sunset. So I did go down with that and that kind of shot, even though it was quite wide, wide angle, I did want to take a decent photo of it because I knew I'd want to edit it. And I wanted to push and pull that raw file in ways that I think my phone wouldn't have supported. So I did use it for that, but a lot of the other times going around split and things like that was just using my iPhone and then had the Fuji with the 56 mil lens on it. A really, really great combination.

Steve Vaughan (35:20)
Hmm. Hmm.

Yeah.

It is quite liberating when you just say, I'm just going to use my phone and it almost gives you the excuse almost not to be a photographer if that doesn't sound crazy.

Nick Church (35:43)
Yeah, that's right. And

it, I think the reason I've, I've resisted it is because that's what happened. But because when, when my kids were, when my eldest was born since 2001, I got a, uh, it was a Canon three 50 D or four 50 D or something like that. So it was an entry level at that point DSLR, um, couple of lenses didn't know. I didn't ever use it in manual mode or anything like that. And

Steve Vaughan (35:59)
Hmm.

Nick Church (36:08)
The reason I stopped using that was because I found it or at that time I used to use BlackBerry, but BlackBerry came out with a camera that was good enough. thought, actually, this is not much different and never picked up the camera again. So I've always, I've always been wary of falling into that trap again of, they're not bothering taking the camera. And what happened of course, was when I sold that Canon 400D and then looked at what was on the compact flash. I thought, wow, these are loads better, especially the ones with the longer 300 mil lens I used on that camera. So.

Steve Vaughan (36:15)
Mm.

Nick Church (36:36)
Yeah. So I've kind of had it in my mind. iPhone photos, not really worth it if you've got a decent camera, but actually I think that's a little bit too black and white and, and that there is a balance there. Yeah. Nice. Nice.

Steve Vaughan (36:45)
Yeah.

That's really interesting. me for just Googling something while we're talking. I just want to check something and I'll come back to it. But, so what was your workflow then? Were you just taking JPEGs and then just, are we doing raw files with you?

Nick Church (36:59)
What I, what I always,

I tell you, Steve, I do this every time as I take, cause it always, if you select raw, it always comes back up as JPEG, doesn't it? But it seems to every time I turn the phone back on. So I always take a few in JPEG. And if it, if it's a shot that I think is actually quite good, which the one I took and posted in the Facebook, but I think it's really nice shot. was really pleased with it. If that was, if that was with my Fuji 18 mil lens, I'd be equally happy with it. So I'm really pleased with it. So when I see a scene like that,

Steve Vaughan (37:12)
because it's an old phone.

It tastes nice. Yeah.

Nick Church (37:27)
I will put it into raw mode and take a role, but I don't think I've ever, I've never got the roar out of it. I don't even know where the rules are on the phone. I don't know even how to find them. I.

Steve Vaughan (37:35)
I think you

have to use the image, what's it app on the Mac or something which nobody ever uses these days. So I tell you what I've done with my phone photography, which is limited, but what I'm trying to do more. So have you got the Lightroom app on your phone?

Nick Church (37:39)
Right, okay. Yeah.

Um, I have, yeah, cause I use it for my courses. So I do, I do talk about Lightroom, um, mobile version on the Lightroom classic online course, but that that's the only reason I have, I have played with it just to see that it's offering that, you know, pretty much the same editing workflow.

Steve Vaughan (37:53)
Okay.

Right.

So

for the two forms of Lightroom, Lightroom Classic is all, obviously all the wedding stuff. Lightroom, used to be called Lightroom Mobile, but it's just Lightroom now, isn't it? I use that purely for my photography. And because it all synchronized and it's been buggy in the past, but it all seems to work now. So iPad, iPhone, iMac or Mac box, I say, all using the Lightroom app or synchronizing the photo. So I take...

Nick Church (38:31)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Vaughan (38:33)
phone photos that I want to do something with with the Lightroom app rather than with the Apple app. so in the more modern, yeah, yeah, because there is a camera function in there and you can switch between the different lenses if you've got a more modern phone than yours. I don't know in your vintage of phone, but have you? there you go. What do I, it's more than a 12 then, it's more recent than that. That's gotta be 15 or something at least.

Nick Church (38:37)
Okay.

so you take, you take the photos with that app as well. Okay. Sure. Yeah.

I've got different lenses on mine. I've got three look. Don't be blooming folk. It's throwing shade on my phone man. Jesus.

No, it's an iPhone 12 Pro Max.

Steve Vaughan (39:03)
Okay, anyway, you got more than one lens, I apologise.

Nick Church (39:06)
You may be wondering

what the I found out. Hang on. I'll tell you what it is now.

Steve Vaughan (39:10)
Well, while you're looking at that, I'll carry on talking to the listener. because with the Apple raw, there is still some processing goes on. I think the Lightroom one is a pure raw, such a thing really. And then it just goes into my workflow in the same ways if I've took a photo with a Fuji or a Sony and imported it into the Lightroom app on my Mac. And what I really like with, because I've an iPad Pro albeit an old one now.

Nick Church (39:12)
I might be a terse because I've got reading glasses on, so.

Okay.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (39:39)
I can sit and edit photos on my iPad rather than fire up the computer. that's one of the things that stops us. think editing around photos, isn't it? Oh, I've to go and edit again. Well, I do that every day anyway. Why don't want to do that for fun? Well, if I can sit while Sam's watching something garbage on TV, I can sit on my iPad and, know, mask singer. Uh, well, if ever they do a show where there's a mask singer on a love Island that bakes cakes and also, um, um,

Nick Church (39:42)
Hmm.

Masked Singer or Love Island.

I should say no more. It's at BBC we bite your arm off for this. should keep that idea under your hat. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (40:09)
dancing as well. She'll be there. That'd be a favorite show. Yeah, she'll go.

John Turowd and the other guy as well, Greg Wallace on it as well probably. Anyway, but that's what I do. So it's quite fun just to have that sort of mobile workflow we don't get anywhere near a computer really unless you really, you know.

Nick Church (40:17)
No more knickers.

Yeah, I think that's

that that's handy. And I think that the the Lightroom mobile app and Lightroom, what you PCC on the, know, just, it's just a bit more immediate. So you take a 20 shots, you know, there's, there's one good one in there, you get it out, you edit it, and it's really quick. Whereas I, what I tend to do is still, I just would always go to Lightroom Classic, but it is a little bit of a faff. You know, it's a good half an hour just to go and just get the things in. And Lightroom is a, is a decent platform, don't get me wrong. And I,

Steve Vaughan (40:37)
Exactly.

It's work.

Nick Church (40:51)
I do, I am quite negative about it in some senses, but that's only from a enthusiast slash serious slash professional photography point of view, where it doesn't deal with huge volumes of images very well. It's only quite recently in the last two or three versions that it supports local storage properly. So it used to be mostly up in the cloud. So it does support local storage, but you haven't got control over the folder structures. You haven't got control over the renaming in the same way.

Steve Vaughan (41:10)
That's right.

Nick Church (41:17)
And for large volumes of images, doesn't do synchronizing settings. If you took a hundred shots of the same thing in Paris, you can't copy and paste your settings across all of them. And you can't add it. So this is, this has turned into a little lesson on the difference between light room and lightroom classic. And you can't do manual keywords either. It will do AI keywords. So will see it. It'll probably work out it's Paris. It'll add Paris to it, but it, and it probably put Arc de Triomphe in it. Yeah. Well, ⁓

Steve Vaughan (41:25)
No, that's right. Yeah.

I think I'll ever keyword it a photo ever.

Nick Church (41:44)
I do occasionally, I do more for non-wedding stuff. So if I'm doing commercial things, I'll quite often put the name of the property or whatever. just so can find it quickly. yeah, otherwise you just, it is quite useful sometimes when you do weddings at the same venue often to, if you stick the keyword on there and then the venue, you know, if the venue ever says, can you do us an album? You just find all of your five-star images that were all taken at that venue. And that's the best photos of that venue. So, but like all work, like all.

Steve Vaughan (41:49)
Okay, I can see that, yeah.

Okay, yeah.

That's a good idea, actually.

That's a great idea. Yeah.

Nick Church (42:12)
keyword workflows, you have got to the effort in upfront. And it does pay back later and it's just up to the individual about whether that payback was worth it or not.

Steve Vaughan (42:16)
Yeah.

Do know a photographer called Glyn Dewis? I'll just Google again. So he used to be based up here. think he's originally from my neck of the woods, from the Midlands, but he used to be based here in Bista because my wife used to run like an innovation center and he had a studio there, but I think he's now living in Devon. But he's got a very good YouTube channel. be a great guest actually get on if we get on sometime. But a lot of the stuff he's done on YouTube has been around phone photography.

Nick Church (42:24)
No. No, I don't.

Steve Vaughan (42:46)
And some of his images are great and also the prints he's made from his phones as well. So it's worth checking out from his workflow on YouTube. listeners, if that's something you're interested in doing, it'd be a great go to get him on as a guest as well. Something else we can reach out to as well. So... ⁓

Nick Church (42:46)
Okay.

Mm.

Yeah, we do that.

And so if somebody's listening that has got their phone is their main camera, then these sorts of things like this guy, Glenn, the shots that you and I taking on holiday, it shows that that isn't a barrier to taking really lovely shots and in some cases doing professional quality work that you can print and sell. there's no limit to it. And certainly for things like our street photography tour, if you've got an iPhone, perfect, bring it along and that's good enough.

Steve Vaughan (43:17)
Absolutely.

Why not? Yeah,

yeah, exactly. What is it that people say the best phone is the one you got with, sorry, best phone, the best camera is the one you've got with you, which is probably your phone. I made a mess of that, I? Yeah, complete mess of that, so.

Nick Church (43:34)
If

Sony start bringing in a phone, a little phone app on the camera, then we're stuffed.

Steve Vaughan (43:38)
Well they do.

Well have their own phone to course. They have their Xperia, XXperia Xperia.

Nick Church (43:42)
Yeah. Do they still, do

people still buy those? Is that still a thing? I always imagine it's sort of sales directors and things like that. have that. Have you got one? You're a sales director. ⁓

Steve Vaughan (43:47)
It's Android, so I don't speak Android. I was once, no, I never had one. no,

I never had one. By the way, have you put the new iPhone OS on, an iPad OS onto your phone yet? No, I wouldn't. It's horrible. I don't like it. It looks a bit sort of Fisher Price.

Nick Church (44:03)
D

Is it? I haven't,

I don't think I've had a notification to say it's available. It might be that my iPhone one or whatever it is, they're 12, 12 pro max. It may be that it hasn't, it's got to the point where it can't be updated anymore. don't know.

Steve Vaughan (44:20)
It's iOS 26, not because it's 26 generations, 26, it's year 26, but I personally don't like it. you like it, least I'll us know, but it just looks a little bit sort of Fisher price.

Nick Church (44:31)
My, my, my phone is because I know everyone's going to be desperate to know this now. My phone is an eye. I could tell the serial number. Um, it's called Nick's iPhone. So if you're near me and you want to join wifi, that's what you need to do. Um, my model name is iPhone 12 pro max. So that's, that is an iPhone 12 and it's iOS 18. So that's fairly old now, is it? Oh, right.

Steve Vaughan (44:35)
We can't wait.

You

is fairly old. Yeah.

And the, there's also a new Mac OS Tahoe as in Lake Tahoe and Sam's got a MacBook and we put it on there. I never put it on the main, the editing Mac in case it doesn't play nicely with later or anything. So I'm still on the previous version, but again, it looks, it looks really NAF, of the best stronger word really. I just don't like how it looks. It looks a bit sort of almost like kindergarten really, but I mean, you know, the icons look yeah.

Nick Church (45:04)
Right.

Oh, they made it a little bit. Yeah. Cause, cause Mac, cause compared

with windows Mac was always, you know, it's a bit adjacent adjacent to that anyway, wasn't it? It was always a little bit more kind of, um, kiddy kind of, you know, very garish colors and things. Um, yeah, no, I really like the Mac interface. I, I, I don't know why, why do you want to change it just to make things look like they're progressing maybe? I don't know. Or.

Steve Vaughan (45:21)
stylish.

But I like that, yeah.

Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll probably

get to.

Nick Church (45:40)
Or as the cynics

would say is to be able to put in there some more, less efficient algorithms to make sure that we have to keep buying Apple computers.

Steve Vaughan (45:47)
Well, what can I say to that one? Yeah.

Nick Church (45:49)
Well, I do need to buy a new Apple computer. That's

that, that'll be a topic for a podcast in future because I do need, because I do need, I do need a new, a new PC here, a new, a new Mac here. So probably Mac studio or something like that, but I haven't bothered researching them yet. Cause this one's still fine, but it's just, although it's doing better since we've come back from Croatia, because since we come back from Croatia, it was, it's become winter here. It's absolutely freezing.

Steve Vaughan (45:53)
That's a whole series, mate, that is, that's what a podcast is.

Yeah.

It is chilling here today, my little office. Yeah. ⁓

Nick Church (46:16)
So my Mac's much

happier. A couple of records ago when we were recording, the fan was on full blast. was really audible. It doing horribly. It was just getting really hot.

Steve Vaughan (46:24)
So this is a

Intel based iMac. You will find eventually you're not going to able to update that. A better warm up because I've got a really, really, really important wedding this weekend and I'm not photographing it. It's my son's wedding this Saturday. In fact, by the time this goes out, it will be over. Matthew Vaughan is getting married to Elizabeth Jones in ⁓ Clint in Worcestershire and Emily Renier, who was a Fujifilm ambassador.

Nick Church (46:27)
Yeah, yeah, so he's very, yeah, sort of struggling a little bit.

⁓ congratulations Master Vaughan.

Steve Vaughan (46:52)
great photographer and a great friend of ours. She's photographing it. So looking really forward to seeing her. Yeah.

Nick Church (46:54)
Amazing.

What does she shoot with Fuji? Yeah, well, I wonder if she did her weddings with that as well. she had what was what what camera bodies XT five.

Steve Vaughan (46:59)
That's why she's a Fujifilm buster, Nick. I think she's

on X-H2s, which are the hybrid version. It's a slightly chunkier version than your camera. Yeah, I think so.

Nick Church (47:09)
So that's the, yes. Yeah. I was looking at those.

was, I was tempted between that, but I think I was tempted because it looked a bit more like I'm used to. It looks a bit more, and it looks more like the Sony, sorry, the Nikon Z range with the little, little despair on the top. And I really liked that. It looks like it's a really solidly built. So I the XT5, I really liked that as well. It does feel a little bit more plasticky than the HS.

Steve Vaughan (47:20)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

It does. Yeah, it's a stylish looking camera. Yeah.

Nick Church (47:37)
HHS2.

Steve Vaughan (47:37)
Well, I'll let

you know, because by the time this podcast goes out, it'll hopefully all be over, because this usually goes out on the Sunday. So next recording I'll let you know and watch which was used. But we're forward to listening to Emily.

Nick Church (47:47)
Yeah. that'd be great. Yeah. We'll have

a wonderful time. Will you do a speech? you got to speak farther? ⁓ nice. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (47:52)
I've got to do a reading in church. Yeah,

because I'm the father of the groom, not father of the bride. If I ever have to do the father of bride speech, I'll be a complete blubbering wreck. My daughter isn't married. She lives in Bristol and has another grandchild on the way. But no, they're not married. But if I ever have to do a father of the bride speech, I'll be a complete blubbering wreck. I can guarantee it.

Nick Church (48:06)
⁓ congratulations to her.

So they get married in the church then. There's a church ceremony. So make sure you keep it clean. You're reading. Stick to the script.

Steve Vaughan (48:20)
Do you know the one you,

you know the one that you must have heard it at a wedding? These hands are the ones that will be the, you must have heard that one. It's that one I'm doing. Yeah. I always think.

Nick Church (48:29)
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. A more, yeah,

not a Bible, a more contemporary reading, not a Bible reading. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (48:35)
It's not a Bible reading. It's just a reading. These hands

are the ones that will hold you. I always think it sounds like Max Bygraves, you you need hands, but anyway, you're going to be old to know what I'm talking about. Yeah, where did Max Bygraves get his the fuck? Yeah, sorry. I can't really show my age now. If you don't know who he was, was a very poor comedian many years ago. So what else we're going to talk about before we wrap up? Evoto. So he said on the previous podcast that Evoto were having a big launch. Have you looked at what they've done at all?

Nick Church (48:43)
God well done to the oxygen oxygenarian listeners

We've had a, we had a quick look before and I won't, I won't lie and say, yeah, I've been looking at, I'm looking at this in some depth because I haven't, but we did have a quick look before we started recording. so yeah, yeah, it looks like they've, they, they've added AI culling right to their, their suite of products. Yes. Yeah. So using the same sort of, ⁓ functions of looking for sharpness, looking for close eyes, that kind of thing. they.

Steve Vaughan (49:11)
That's blown our sponsorship here.

Like after shoot or imaging, yeah.

Nick Church (49:28)
They still seem at the moment, I don't know if this is intentional or whether that's, ⁓ they're going to stay this way. It's still portrait oriented. So it's, it's very much is, is retouching the AI editing is still all around the retouching kind of space and replacing backgrounds and things. Whereas imagine and after shoot is of course much more general. So you could throw a wedding at it, throw a architecture shoot at it, and it will kind of learn your style and then edit for you. Whereas these are very much kind of, still in the area of.

Steve Vaughan (49:37)
okay.

Right. Got you.

Nick Church (49:57)
those photographers that are going to be using Photoshop Bridge or maybe Lightroom to do all their culling, look at their contact sheets and stuff, take everything into Photoshop and then do quite a lot of slow retouching. It's a way to speed up that whole workflow rather than the shooter wedding, chuck it into Lightroom, edit it Lightroom and spit it out as export with JPEGs. But yeah, it'd be good to have plan. know they were quite keen to be involved in the pod.

Steve Vaughan (50:05)
Got you. Yeah.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Still be interesting to play with it. Yeah.

Nick Church (50:26)
at various times. I'll get back in touch and see if we can get a few. They haven't answered the emails. In fact, all the emails have bounced since then. So it's like they blocked us. And we were really, we were really kind about Evoto. Yeah. Yeah. So, and in fact, we're kind about everybody. if, if there's somebody we're not kind about, we just don't mention it. So we haven't mentioned any particular brand. That might be why. Or it might be, we just haven't mentioned them. You can't tell. And that's the, that's the exciting thing about it. You just don't know, you?

Steve Vaughan (50:28)
Is that before they listen to it? I wonder why. Who's that idiot for the Birmingham accent that talks nonsense? We are. We're kind of about all of the people we like. Yeah. Yeah. So,

It is, yes,

it's every day is a school day isn't it

Nick Church (50:56)
I was telling a, um, had to find a USB the other day, USB lead. And it was driving me mad. And it reminded me of, I was telling Jan friend of the pod, um, about, um, you know, the videographer that we had on, um, Jan, Jan Villum and Conn, Conn, Inansburg. I was, I I find myself avoid saying is I would, I find myself avoiding saying his name because I know I'm going to bloody make it right. Car crash of it. Um, so I was telling him this, I thought I thought.

Steve Vaughan (51:10)
Yeah, yeah.

Sounds good to me. Yeah. ⁓

Nick Church (51:24)
of blocked this wedding out really. was a long time ago, but it was, so like it was before the pandemic, I think probably 2019, maybe early 2020, I think it's 2019 though. And the, was just, car crash, the whole thing. The vicar was really unusual and I'll give him absolute credit, the benefit of the doubt rather than credit is the word I was looking for. I'll give him benefit of the doubt. I think it was all due to that some people

and by the vickers and more likely to be this and others is debatable are less aware of what's appropriate to say. But he was asking this poor flower girl, whether she had a boyfriend and this girl was just wanted to die in the whole world to swallow her up. he, no, like 11, 10 or 11. And he said, Oh, I'll have to find you a girlfriend by the end of today, boyfriend by the end of the day. And I thought, just stopped saying this is really what said that the bride was really a little bit upset by this. Anyway, so that I kind of brought that out because I thought I don't.

Steve Vaughan (52:08)
I wish you six. ⁓

What?

cringe.

Nick Church (52:23)
want to be around this kind of thing. Anyway, then we, then we had a really nice, a nice setup in the, in the ceremony, like a, not a woodland thing, but a festively open, you know, stretch tent type open area in a field. It was really, it was a really nice, nice space that's set up. The DJ had to, had an issue for some reason he couldn't make it. So he got one of his friends to do it or another sub, know, such we subcontract this idea.

Steve Vaughan (52:35)
Mm. Yep, yep.

Yeah, nice.

Alright.

Nick Church (52:49)
And this DJ was having a right nightmare trying to set up this mixing desk and the, just trying to put power through, know, get power into the thing. It couldn't, you couldn't find the lead. The, was a really nice environment, but it really, I've never been anywhere that more needed some nice chilled reggae kind of chilled out vibe tunes, because all you could hear was there was a farm down the road and they were doing some of that, you know, fingers down a blackboard kind of angle grinding. So you could just hear that.

Steve Vaughan (53:07)
Yeah.

Nick Church (53:17)
in the background, just loud enough that it was like, this is a horrible noise. We need some music. So the DJ was frantic. He was really hot. He was quite a big fellow and he realized he didn't have a USB cable. was one of those weird USB cables that had the normal USB A on one end. And then it was the, that fat kind of square at the other end. Like, ⁓ I'll tell you, it's a USB A B C D E. You could just edit the right one in once you've Googled it.

Steve Vaughan (53:39)
⁓ yeah, another one you made,

It's got like two

things to it almost, like two bits. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah.

Nick Church (53:47)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that type. Yeah.

So he didn't have that. He went off to Sainsbury's or Morrison's or something, you know, to exactly, thought that you might be able to find a, just a straight USB lead in a big, in a big Sainsbury's or Morrison's, but you're not going to find one like that. Anyway, he went off and an hour later, he was only sort of 10 minutes down the road there Sainsbury's. hadn't, he hadn't come back. So the groom went off to find him with the best man and they found him led down in Sainsbury's.

Steve Vaughan (53:54)
Like Morrisons is going to sell one. Yeah. Yeah. That's a supermarket by the way.

Nick Church (54:16)
He's, he's let down in the chilled, in the chiller section. And what happened, he was so stressed because they didn't have one that he had a bit of a funny turn and sort of thought if I, I'll take myself to the coolest aisle, cause it was quite a hot day. And he just, he just had it, he collapsed, he was on his back and they brought him around and no one was helping. So he was just there on his own. So they, they thought, oh, there he is. Oh, he's on his back and there's no one around him. And he looks like he might've passed away. So they, they brought him around and, um,

Steve Vaughan (54:41)
Unbelievable.

Nick Church (54:44)
you know, but he said, Oh, thanks for that. Yeah. Thanks for the drink of water. But he said, I definitely can't continue now. So, so he had to go home and I had an idea that I went to the venue office and I thought this is a bloody printer lead. I'm sure it is. just, I just ripped that printer lead out, stuck it in. was, and we were off. So I, I saved the day with my, which we're just going for.

Steve Vaughan (55:07)
What a hero.

I don't know if we've done that, we might have something to do at Christmas time, but we ought to do a It Shouldn't Have Happened To A Wedding Photographer episode. Things that we've seen over the years.

Nick Church (55:15)
⁓ the number of things

that, the number of things just in the last five shoots that I could talk about that. yeah, this was just, it just, it the image of, of some poor DJ collapsed without, without the right USB. But yeah, anyway, so I think the venue a bit annoyed then cause their printer wasn't working, but you know, we got them, got the music going and,

Steve Vaughan (55:21)
Yeah.

Bless you.

Ha ha.

That's much more important. Did he print things on a wedding day? Probably not. Yeah. ⁓

Nick Church (55:37)
Not really, no, the bill, I suppose,

the invoice.

Steve Vaughan (55:41)
What have you got planned for the rest of week, before we wind things up?

Nick Church (55:45)
Well, yeah, um, there's, it's interesting that there's, know, we talk about how much we love our jobs and all that stuff. You know, being a photographer is, a wonderful profession and it's fun and exciting and all those things, but there are times where there's not quite as fun and for, but, it's still really important. so, and I had, there was a couple of things that happened recently. I had a, I did a shoot, um, about two or three months ago, start of the summer and

Steve Vaughan (55:51)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It is.

Nick Church (56:13)
The bride contacted me, ⁓ about a month after I'd done the shoot. So it was in that period of I've culled it all. I've done a few previews, but I haven't edited them yet. And she, she said she's been diagnosed with stage four cancer and it was terminal. And she wanted, she said, there's no rush. I don't want you to rush. And she was so lovely about it. know, she said, I don't want you to put us ahead of anyone else. We're just keen to know when the pictures will be ready so that I can enjoy them as much as possible. And I'm well enough to it's like, man.

Steve Vaughan (56:22)
Yeah.

⁓ no. ⁓ gosh.

⁓ wow.

Nick Church (56:42)
And it just makes you think how important, you know, when you do so many weddings, like your wedding this weekend is going to be different because it's your son and it's going to be so much more personal. Yeah. Yeah. Not photographing. But it, but it makes you remember that these are such precious memories for people that we are capturing. It is such an important thing. And next week, on Monday, I'm doing a, as a friend of mine whose mother's passed away in the last couple of weeks. So I'm doing a live stream for her cause she's got family in Australia. So.

Steve Vaughan (56:50)
I don't know if photographing it here.

That's a super point really, yeah.

⁓ bless you. Yeah.

Nick Church (57:11)
And so the church did have a live stream team associated with it, but they just weren't comfortable doing it. It is pretty stressful to do a live stream because the slightest bit of thing goes wrong. just is dead air for everybody.

Steve Vaughan (57:21)
I

can remember vividly doing live streams of both weddings and funerals during COVID as just a way of bringing some cash in. Yeah. boy, was it stressful. Yeah. So good for you, Yeah.

Nick Church (57:25)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So yeah, so

I'll be doing that. And that'll be again, something that's nice to be able to do something that people are getting real kind of, you real connections with that they otherwise couldn't.

Steve Vaughan (57:39)
Absolutely. Yeah. Good for you, mate. Good

for you. Yeah. We're hoping to have a guest on next time, a lady called Amy Lee Atkins. So I don't think you've met Amy Lee. So she's probably best known in the wedding industry for having a preset business called Northern Presets because she lives in the north of the UK, which is also an Adobe beta tester.

Nick Church (57:52)
No. No.

Mm-hmm.

Steve Vaughan (58:04)
So she's very well connected with all things to do with Lightroom. And she's got some interesting views about editing, particularly Sony files as well. And she also writes in many of the sort of camera magazines articles on editing. So it would be like an editing special, also, you know, marketing presets as well. So all being well, she'll be on the pod in two weeks time. So I'm looking forward to that really.

Nick Church (58:10)
right, interesting.

Excellent.

I'll see if I can get to be an ambassador for the Lightroom Unleashed Online course.

Steve Vaughan (58:30)
There you go. That's one of your courses on the Academy.

Nick Church (58:33)
Yeah, that's my,

that's my Lightroom Classic. Yeah. That Lightroom Classic course on the Nick Church Creative Academy, which is what I've been doing alongside all of the stuff we talked about. So any spare, there's, if I've got an hour, I think, right, I could do that. If it fit in an hour, then I'm creating a lesson and getting it uploaded. that's, but that's about the minimum amount of time. it's, if it's less than that, it's just by the time you just end up not quite being able to finish the video and it's just really frustrating. So yeah, so I've been doing a lot of that.

Steve Vaughan (58:50)
Yeah, amazing.

Yeah. But you've created a fantastic

resource there for people who want to improve their photography, both professionals and enthusiasts moving forward. It's a great resource and I've looked at it and it's a tremendous what you've done.

Nick Church (59:08)
Yeah, thanks Steve. Yeah, it is

a, I'm really, you know, obviously I'm absolutely biased, but I'm really behind it. I think it is, you know, I did look around a lot of these courses before and took a few of them. I've paid for a few of them. And I think this one is the most complete, most logical structured way to do Lightroom and the photographer unleashed course as well. It's the same sort of vibe to it and Photoshop.

Steve Vaughan (59:25)
I'd agree with that.

I'm right in saying that you've got

an Instagram page for it now as well. Instagram channel, whatever the right phrase is. Okay.

Nick Church (59:34)
Yeah, there's Nick Church Creative Academy Instagram. Yes, that's just at

Nick Church Creative Academy. so yeah, there are things, there's more details about courses on there as well. And occasional free kind of PDFs and bits of good resources. Plus we share the, ⁓ YouTube pods and reels and stuff through there as well. So some people might've seen, seen that pop up already, but yeah, yeah, it do goes a follow it'd be, and you'll, you'll keep, keep on top of the pod stuff as well. through that.

Steve Vaughan (59:47)
Super.

Christoph, yeah, I'll get to you. Yeah, we'll do.

Well, let's wrap the show up. if you've enjoyed today's episode, thank you to the listener for listening. Then don't forget to give us a review. You can review us on either Apple Podcasts or Spotify, preferably a five-star review, which would be lovely. If you could do so, does help us in lots of weird and wonderful, mysterious ways as well.

Nick Church (1:00:16)
If it's not five stars, don't bother. Just don't bother. It's fine.

Steve Vaughan (1:00:20)
Okay, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah.

And of course, you have any suggestions for the show, future guests, future topics, we'd love to hear from you as well. And don't forget the Facebook group, as Nick mentioned, it's just the photography part of Facebook group. You do have to request to join, but you're very welcome to join us. If you're remotely interested in photography, we would love to see you there. We will get the YouTube channel going again at some stage in the foreseeable future, but for now we're moving forward as an audio only podcast and there's nothing wrong with that.

Nick Church (1:00:29)
Absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (1:00:48)
whatsoever. So if you want more of Nick and me in your ear holes, we are recording it. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Church (1:00:49)
Although to be clear, we are recording all the videos, right Steve? So we are, they

will be available. It's just the, you know, the chaos and things we've talked about is causing a bit of a backlog on that, but they will be there. It's just at the moment, subscribe through Spotify or talk to Spotify. There's a great bit of recommendation on Netflix. There is a, and I completely forgot the name, which is great. There's a drama, Norwegian drama about Spotify. It's really good. The playlist is called.

Steve Vaughan (1:00:56)
Editing.

Absolutely. if you're gone.

Is it? ⁓

Nick Church (1:01:19)
Absolutely fascinating.

Yeah, I knew nothing about the the frictions between artists and Spotify and all those really good

Steve Vaughan (1:01:25)
Oh yeah, Spotify is the worst

in terms of what they pay them. They pay them like a fraction of a fraction of one penny per play per song. It's they're the worst apparently. Having said that, Spotify, please like our podcast, Spotify. We're not going to go you honest.

Nick Church (1:01:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's, terrible. I mean, that's why massive attack, massive attack of, oh yeah. Oh, of course. Oh yeah.

But that's, is a really interesting watch. Um, if, I really love things like that. I like the Blackberry film as well about the Blackberry and that Apple. I love things like that about these sort of small startup companies and how the companies we talk about every day and how, where they start. So I think it's a really, just really interesting, interesting story. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (1:01:44)
Yeah. Thanks for the recommendation.

Yeah, that was good.

Yeah, little acorns. absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. So, and of course, don't forget if you are in the UK, listen, don't forget about the 1st of October where I meet up in London, more details in the photography podcast, Facebook group, should I say. But hopefully we have enough numbers to play Monopoly, but more of that to come on near the time. Thanks for listening. We'll be back again in a couple of weeks. Until then, happy shooting out there and we'll talk to you soon.

Nick Church (1:02:20)
Goodbye.